Podcast Transcription: Heather Akumiah

Sep 11

Sep 11 Podcast Transcription: Heather Akumiah

This episode, Bookseller Jules interviewed Heather Akumiah, author of Bad Witches, a novel about three 20-somethings who, on their collective birthday, discover they have magical powers. Once they begin to hone those powers, however, they learn more about the witch world, The Sphere, and its looming witch shortage.

Will these witches be able to save The Sphere while also surviving being 22 in New York City? Only time will tell!

The two discuss Black representation in literature, handwriting a novel, and what it’s like to be a Virgo.

Jules
Ok! Hello Heather!

Heather
Hi Jules!

Jules
This is so, oh my god, surreal even.

Heather
Low key, high key even.

Jules
Okay, so everyone, this is Heather, Heather Akumiah, who is an incredible writer, host of a reading series, Limousine, that honestly, really is the talk of the town. I have to be so honest! The amount of people who I now know through Limousine and you know, it's just so cool. I mean, not me trying to already immediately go off and talk about Limousine. We're here to talk about your new novel that's coming out, Bad Witches about some bad witches who are a little bitchy. I don't know. Okay. I love this book.

Heather
Thank you.

Jules
To talk about just like the synopsis briefly, it's about three young 20-somethings, Maya, Dalali, and Gabby, and they are not only trying to deal with the fact that they are in their 20s, they also have to deal with the fact that now they're realizing that they actually have magical powers and they all share a birthday. And there's some weird stuff happening in the magical world where another young girl, Nadia, is determined to figure it out. So we not only get to see the three young 20-somethings in real-world New York City, we also get to see Nadia, a girl of relatively the same age, in the magical world. Which– I loved that. Also, side note, the girls are all Virgos.

Heather
Indeed, they are indeed.

Jules
Which, that came across so clearly from the jump and to immediately jump into complimenting you: what I loved so much about it is that through your narration you're able to get a sense of their voice and it’s so clear and they're all such classic Virgos in such different ways, which I loved.

Okay, so Gabby's cute, she’s a crafter and she's very detail-oriented and driven. But a bit more soft spoken, right? But then Delali is a childhood star and won't sign an autograph if they don't say her name right. So nitpicky and specific. And then Maya, which I loved, you described her as a Hilary Banks type.

Heather
Indeed. Yeah.

Jules
And she's spoiled and is I think a Virgo in the way that she's a little judgmental, right? She sometimes can’t control her lace front, you know what I mean? Like we can judge, but at the end of the day sometimes the call is coming from inside the house. You know what I mean?

Heather
So real. So true.

Jules
So I think the first question that I have when it comes to getting into the minds of these characters, how did you find the archetypes and how did you sort of lean into that?

Heather
A good question. Honestly, I struggled a lot with this because I think I was trying to make the book funny and it's very hard for me to be funny in a voice that's not mine. My sense of humor skews in a very specific way. So it was hard to sort of– I would find myself trying to make something funny or have a character make an honest observation. And then I would be like, “This is just my voice. This is just my observation. This is just how I would perceive something.” So it was difficult. There was a lot of writing things and pulling them back. I think I struggled with Maya's voice a little bit because I was trying to make her mean in a way that I am not exactly. Sometimes I would feel like “Have I gone too far? Is this going to make her unlikable to people?” So it was difficult. There was just a lot of negotiation as I was doing it.

But in terms of coming up with the archetypes, Maya was the first girl that I wrote and she was really meant to represent all of the frivolity and fluffiness and glamor that I was trying to put into certain parts of the book. A huge goal for me in writing this was that I wanted it to be something that was very lighthearted, very fun, very escapist. And I felt like she is the character who made that most possible, so she was sort of the first character. And then someone like Gabby I feel like is just necessary. There's a Charlotte or somebody who is just the sort of innocent one, the one who gets kind of dunked on, the one that you're kind of rooting for to come out of their shell and become more self -possessed, so that was sort of an easy archetype. And then I think the third one was kind of difficult because I wanted Delali to be sort of a reader-insert or sort of a Greek chorus. And that I struggled with for the same reasons that I struggled with differentiating the girl's voices. So as soon as I was like, “Okay, she's going to be the Greek chorus. She's going to be the reader-insert. She's going to say the thing that everyone's thinking,” it ultimately ended up being what I was thinking. So that was difficult. She was meant to be the most neutral character. But I mean, you're someone who's read the book, so you can see that she's actually not that neutral. She also has her own sort of weird quirks and obsessions and excesses.

So yeah, that's kind of how it happened. I had these ideas of what I wanted them to be, but it's not like having those ideas made it easy or straightforward to write. It made it a little bit easier, like it gave me some guidance, but yeah, there was a lot of editing.

Jules
Okay, slay. I mean, I think hearing the Greek chorus aspect of it – I love. And also I feel like it's always so interesting to read a book by somebody I know because my way of doing that before was just reading the acknowledgments before I read the book to try and get a sense of the writer's voice. But because I already know your voice there were moments where I would catch your humor and stuff like that. But I just love when authors do that, whether intentionally or not. I love when it's like, “Hey, surprise, I'm the one writing this book, and I'm going to have an opinion on it.” Even if it's not intentional, when it comes through, I just feel like it's such a strong device.

Also, I love the idea of Gabby being a Charlotte because of the excessive use of exclamation points [in her texts to the other girls]. She was doing what I was thinking just being like, “Okay, guys, we've got it! We got it! It's going to be so great. It's going to be so amazing!”

Heather
That's so funny, Jules. Yeah.

Jules
She's the most eager to be like, “Let's hang out!” I just thought it was so sweet.

Let's talk about the separate worlds that are sort of coexisting at the same time in this book. So there's New York City and there's the Sphere, capital S Sphere, which at times when the girls eventually learn about their powers and inevitably learn about the world. And as the reader is introduced, it's right off the jump, first page you're like, “This is what's going on, this is the world.” And then “Also, surprise there's a normal world, too.” There's a lot of rules, regulations, laws, all kinds of things. When writing fantasy, where does that live in an organizational way? My Virgo stellium is showing. Did you write like a timeline? Did you write a chart? Do you have a Google sheet? Like, how did you go about organizing like, “This is what happened when, this is what rule, this coincides with this.” How did that come to be?

Heather
Great question. I am not a hugely organized person. I wish I were. But ultimately, I wrote a timeline. I did write a timeline. And actually, the initial earlier drafts of the book have a lot more backstory. A lot more backstory of the people who live in the Sphere, so there was that. I had to map out, “Okay, this is what happens over the course of 30 years.” I had to do all of that and figure out people's ages. Same thing with figuring out all of the logistics about the girls receiving communications from the Sphere, like when they get them. I wrote a lot for the backstory. I wrote a timeline to make sure that everything made sense, not just for what happens before the book, but also for the timeline of the book itself was really tricky to make certain plot points happen in the girls real world at the same time that this crisis is progressing and changing in the Witch Sphere. So that was difficult. But yeah, that is basically what I did. I had a big document with all of the backstory and the timeline was handwritten.

Jules
Okay– what? Handwritten? That's crazy.

Heather
Yeah, well, I need to be able to visualize it. Like, you know how you used to have those timelines on the wall in your classroom when you were a kid? Like those historical timelines? I needed it to be like that so I could see it moving, if that makes sense.

Jules
Okay. Yeah, no, totally. That makes a lot of sense.

So a big plot point of this book is that all of a sudden there's a witch shortage!

Heather
Indeed!

Jules
People are giving birth and the babies are not witches. When it came to that plot line, I thought it was so interesting. A) because I think when talking about, I mean, I just immediately go big brain, right? I'm like, “Okay, are they not listening to black women?” You know what I mean?

Heather
Right, right.

Jules
I also just think in terms of this witch Sphere (capital S Sphere) it’s ideally like the perfect world, right? Like the atmo-Sphere (I loved what you did there) is where residual magic lives, right? Where it can benefit people in the Sphere and in the Typic World, right? So happenstance, deja vu, you know, meet cutes. And yet this thing happens and it's like, not to call it a little thing, but a thing happens and everything goes to hell. They're freaking out. They don't know what to do.

When crafting this idea, how did that come to be?

Heather
Yeah, it's interesting because I was thinking exactly that. That is sort of the big challenge of writing anything is the “why now?” I'm supposed to be telling a story of something that has never happened before or something that's very unique, otherwise, why would we be here? Why would they have gotten their powers? Why am I telling you this? So that was tricky because the Witch Sphere is meant to be a good place. People have magic, they're meant to have everything that they need to be able to live good and prosperous lives. So I had to come up with something that was going wrong.

I didn't want the book to be dark. I didn't want it to be dark in any way or have any dark parallels to the real world. I didn't want there to be some big evil force that's coming to destroy them or anything like that. I tried to be moderate about what was actually troubling them. So without having some evil outside force, I was like, “Okay, this has to be something that's happening within them.” So then I thought, “I don't know, what kind of crisis could be happening to them that is not coming from the outside world?” It would be an existential crisis. Like, “There are fewer of us. We're dissolving.” So that's sort of where that came from.

You can really twist yourself into pretzels thinking about the logic of the problems that you're putting together. I mean, there is still the question of why did this event that happened happen? I tell you why it happened, but there can always be more questions behind that. Why did this one person behave the way that they did and destroy the universe? I think you have to sort of negotiate. Asking yourself enough hard questions that you're not creating a flimsy plot, but also leaving room for the fact that sometimes something unique and horrible just does happen unexpectedly. And that's true of even a world that the creators of that universe did their best to make it perfect. Still, some things are going to slip through the cracks. You have to use that explanation as rarely as possible, but it is an explanation that exists.

So yeah, that's sort of how I came around to it. I was just really trying to balance the dark elements. I didn't really want there to be any murder or capitalism or things, yeah, things that are really depressing. I just didn't want too much of that.

Jules
Yeah, well, and I think legacy is such a strong theme throughout the book and taking that literally. It's like when you like get your finger caught in those little traps, or you try and go to bed when your nose is stuffy you're like, “Wow. I took advantage of every single day that I could breathe or I could use my finger.” And it gets so big. I feel in a world that's so perfect it just really is blown out of proportion. It's just so interesting to read.

During an event with Gerardo Sámano Córdova– come on! My grandma would be very excited about that pronunciation.

Heather
Mm hmm. Yeah. Come on pronunciation.

Jules
Come on!

Author of Monstrillo, a book that I loved. When I worked the event, he had mentioned in writing “Sometimes the first thing I look for is like, ‘What hints did I leave myself? What clues did I find that– oop I didn't even mean to do that!’ Did you find that that happened? Like, cause I know (not me doing my research beforehand) you started writing this years ago and wrote it as a web series. So in transitioning form and all of that revisiting the story, like what changed, what stayed the same, and what had you left or what little goodies had you left yourself do you think?

Heather
Hmm, that's really interesting. I mean, I think certain things, for example, writing that there are three girls, that was just a number that I came up with, but then it is a number that works perfectly for this kind of a story where you need to have these archetypal characters, but it also is a number that works really well for creating the lore of another universe, if that makes sense. I mean, you know, because you've read the book, but they have these really distinct personalities that connect to these faculties that are important in the Witch Sphere. So in that way I feel like I lucked out by giving myself the number three and then coming up with this idea to explain the number three when I was already part of the way through writing it.

In terms of, things that changed while moving from one from one medium to another, just everything because you just can describe a lot more stuff. But at the same time, that was more difficult because it was like, “now I really have to use my imagination,” which you would think that as a writer that I'm imaginative, but as someone who writes mostly literary fiction, I actually don't have this super boundless imagination where I'm imagining this other universe. That was a lot of work for me and a lot of effort for me. And also I was very conscious of how much more I could do. Like I would describe something and then I would be like, “Well, that kind of just sounds like the real world, but purple. Like, is there more that you could say there?” So that was definitely a big difference.

I mean, when I wrote it as a web series, there was no other universe, it was just the real world and the girls had powers. So yeah, that was something that changed. Just like how much more space and opportunity there was, but that opportunity is a huge, huge challenge.

In terms of whether I left myself any hints, God, I don't know. I have to reread the book again. I don't know if there were any great hints that I left myself without realizing. think. I was really conscious about trying to have a domino kind of effect and to have certain hints at the beginning and stuff. So I don't know if I have anything that falls into that category. I'm sure once I get off this [call], I'll think of it because I do know what he means. And it's something that, again, when I write short stories, I notice a lot, in part because that's such a contained form I will notice that you almost without realizing it have a knowledge of where the story is going to end up and you do leave those things behind without realizing it. Nothing comes to mind, but I'm sure something will as soon as I get off this call.

Jules
Or you'll be sleeping in the middle of the night and you'll be like, “*gasp* I found it.”

Heather
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Or I'll be rereading the book and I'll be like, “That's it.” Yea.

Jules
And there it is.

Heather
And there it is.

Tiffany
You’ve made it this far! Before we move on we wanted to take a second to let you know that this episode will serve as a “season finale” of sorts!

We’ll be taking a brief hiatus this fall and winter and will come back stronger than ever!

In the meantime, give this episode some extra love and be sure to give all of our others a listen while you’re at it!

Jules
Let's hold on to the fact that you brought up the color purple– not The Color Purple.

Heather
Mmm, not the color. Not that.

Jules
So let's talk color. So we're gonna talk color and then we're gonna talk color.

So you talk about how, you know, in the Sphere, there's like a common thread of people wearing gold and green and black and aquamarine and you really hone in on the color purple. I really wish that Alice Walker–

Heather
Mm-hmm. LOL.

Jules
You know what I mean? So anyway.

Heather
No, it's funny. It's hilarious. The way she scooped that up. Now can never just mean the color purple.

Jules
No! Ever!

But, you know, purple is sort of magic personified. Purple is glittered and littered all throughout the book. An color means so much, but you really honing in on that color specifically, like where did that come from for you? Like in terms of– let's get metaphorical, right? Let's get deep.

Heather
Okay, well, I hate to disappoint you, but it's just because I'm basic.

Jules
No! No!

Heather
Like in my head, I think magic and I think purple, I think silver, and I think gold and those are just the colors that came to mind. And, again, when I was trying to differentiate the real world and the Sphere, I was just trying to think about things that we take for granted in our lives, in our world, that would be different if there were another universe. So we take for granted that black is a neutral color, which I understand is based in science, but what if there was another universe where black is not a neutral color? Or we take for granted that black is a color that represents something negative– what if in another universe it doesn't represent something negative? So I was just trying to think about if witches were to create a world from scratch, what would they have [done] differently? Because their values are different or because their world is different. So yeah, I think magic and I think purple. I don't know!

Jules
Alright, you said, “I'm basic,” and then gave an answer and then started to get really deep and beautiful–

Heather
Stop!

Jules
– And then and then tried to go back and be like, “Yeah, yeah, color.”

Heather
And in conclusion, I'm dumb. No, I'm just kidding.

Jules
Anything means something, right? Like, being in English class and being like, “I think she really just meant mint leaves. I don't think that there is anything else there,” but there really is so much more to it. It’s also some of it is the job of the reader, right, to a certain extent.

Heather
True. Yeah.

Jules
So I know, I think purple. And I remember that I saw a TikTok recently about this lady being like, “you know, why purple was such a rare color is because like there's no real way that it's sourced. And it was actually like one of the most expensive colors to produce for a really long time.” And so that's, you know, that's what I think about. I think as I was reading it, I was like, “Okay, yeah, like there is something behind [that].” And you gave me the answer, so slay.

So now let's talk color. The fact that I was able to read this and not once did I imagine that any one of these characters was not Black.

Heather
Right.

Jules
And thank god for that. And there’s that tendency, right, is like just so everywhere and like all the time, all at once, right? But to go into it being like, “And now I can rest and read a book” and know that, even if they're not necessarily Black, like there were not [many] white people in this book. And like, I'm imagining I'm visualizing the capital S Sphere and I'm like, “everybody is so diverse. This is so amazing. What a diverse group of people.” And I, you know, I'm such a big witch girl, right?

Heather
Love that. I didn't know that.

Jules
Like I loved– oh my god, really?

Heather
No, I didn't know that! Love that. Wow, okay, that is interesting.

Jules
Well, I was big into The Craft. I love The Craft. The Craft is one of my favorite, favorite, favorite movies ever.

Heather
Love that. Wow, okay!

Jules
Rochelle needed a better storyline.

Editor’s note: In the film, Rochelle is a Black witch who faces racist-fueled bullying by a white classmate.

I think what’s so difficult, especially in the nineties, she was able to discover her magic and lean into her magic out of spite, out of anger, out of retribution.

Heather
Yeah.

Jules
And sure, you're rooting for her and you feel for her because it's such an unfortunate situation. But I really was just so happy to see that these girls were able to discover their magic and it had nothing to do with any oppressive force from like a place of ignorance or a place of hate or a place of anger. The only other depiction that I can think of where it's [about] Black witches is Twitches.

Heather
Yeah, yeah! I didn't want anyone to suffer. I mean, not that suffering is not part of a) the Black experience and b) the human experience. Like, obviously those things are both true. But, I don't know about you, but obviously I feel like we are overrepresented in struggle narratives, or maybe struggle narratives are overrepresented in the work that we have, which, for understandable reasons, but also there does need to be space for people to consume something that means nothing about people who look like them. That does have its own meaning, even though I wouldn't say that I'm writing a fiction that has a mission or a fiction that's necessarily political. It does mean something for these girls to just have experiences that are not defined by their race.

And the idea isn't to pretend that they're not Black. It's just to, I think, maybe accurately reflect how for these girls what being Black feels like, like what the Black experience is like for these three girls. I don't think you will get the sense that I've placed them in an imaginary universe where race and racism don't exist. I mean, the Sphere is that. the real, don't think you'll think that about the girls living in New York. But at the same time I don't think you'll read this as a story about how being Black has ruined their lives.

Jules
Yeah, definitely not. I feel like it's just one of those things where like, it's like the white noise machine was shut off for a second. I think it's kind of how I felt reading it. I was like, “Oh! They have not had to face any weird–” It’s not that I went into it expecting it, right? I just feel like it is so empowering to read something at any age but especially going back. I loved witches as a kid, loved witches, loved The Craft, and [knowing] there's so much more to an up and coming or a coming-of-age story and coming to terms with who you are and all of that. I think through this sense of sisterhood and community I think was just so beautiful. That wasn't a question, that was just a comment.

Heather
Yeah, yeah. There are some portions where you're like, “Oh, someone's being weird about race,” but I don't think you get the feeling– I hope you don't get the feeling while you're reading it. A lot of times the way, as a Black person, obviously there are huge structural issues and there are things that are really depressing. But on a day to day basis, I think the way that I experienced racism growing up was just something would happen and I'd be like, “Oh, well, that makes me feel kind of weird.” And I think you do get some of that in the book with obviously Gabby's weird boyfriend and Delali's classmates or the place she goes to that her ex-boyfriend stars in. I think I...

Jules
That play was crazy. That play was crazy.

Editor’s note: In the book, Delali’s ex-boyfriend stars in a play called Friday Nights and Civil Rights which is performed in earnest, however it is used in the book as a plot device to serve as commentary on white saviorism in sports regarding Black athletes during trying racial times.

Heather
I can't believe that play got made.

Jules
Yeah.

Heather
Just kidding, I can. But yeah, I think that is sort of a more accurate reflection of what racism feels like on a daily basis is like you think somebody else is being kind of weird about your race and then that's kind of what it feels like and what it looks like a lot of the time.

Jules
You know, me and my suburban mind, I read this book but now–

Heather
Yeah, no, you're like, “There's none of it,” I know.

Jules
Now we're talking about it and I'm like, “Wait…”

Heather
Yeah, but it no, but that is how it feels!

Jules
Yeah.

Heather
Like, it does feel a little bit normal. Like that is kind of how you experience it. And something that was important for me was not that there would be no discussion of race, but more that I'm not going to make these girls the center of some immense suffering at the hands of their race. And also hopefully the judgment, as you read, lies with the person who's being weird about race. It's not like, “I feel sorry for these girls.” You might feel sorry for the person who's being weird.

Jules
Right, you're like, “Oh that's embarrassing for you. That's crazy.” Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

There's so much humor too. Like, what's that meme that's like “laughs in Black”?

Heather
Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's my favorite color to laugh in.

Jules
But it's like, there were so many moments where I was like, “Okay, yes”! Like I mentioned the lace front joke earlier, “If there was a wind, her lace would be flapping in it.”

Heather
And that's real.

Jules
It’s so a) funny and b) it’s such a specific and like, I don't want to say niche, but in this particular context, a “niche” way to describe somebody that a certain group of people would be able to understand. And then other people would be like, “Ha yeah, totally.”

Heather
It was really, really fun to get that specific. I think one of the, again, weird things about, I guess, white supremacy and the way that race is–

Jules
Get into it, get into it!

Heather
Yeah, one of the weird things is just how much we are forced to know about white people and the intricacies of white people and how they function and like what strawberry blonde means. Like, why do I know that? I know about the stages of a sunburn and that has nothing to do with me. So it was just fun to put in stuff that was just like very specific and very Black and kind of like, I don't know, you can go learn about it if you want to, or you can not, you don't have to. But it is so interesting, that imbalance of just how much we have to know about white people and their lives and the things that they do and their approach to the world. And it doesn't really work in reverse. They are just wildly ignorant about, “Oh, is that a wig?” You know?

Jules
Right.

You know what would be so funny as promo for this book is like a screenshot of Google searches after reading your book. Like “What is a lace front?” Something like that.

Heather
Mmm, yes. “What is a boar bristle brush?”

Jules
That's so funny.

So you talk about earlier how you were like, “You know, I really wanted to make this book funny,” which, it is rest assured it is.

Heather
Thank you. Thank you.

Jules
That's something that I really struggle with. It's like, “Okay, I want this to be funny, but I also want this to come across.” Where does that start and stop with you? Does that make sense? When you're approaching certain scenes or even moments between characters, like, are you like, “Okay, I want this to be funny,” how do you pepper in humor? What comes first?

Heather
That is such a good question. It's really hard. I wish I had more answers to “Here's how I approach this thing,” but like everything else it was a negotiation. I know exactly what you mean, there is a way that I could write this story where every single scene is funny, but it's not written that way. I think the thing that was important for me was that I wanted the girls to be funny with each other and I wanted to find their interactions funny. I didn't want to make something funny that was serious. So if one of the girls was experiencing a moment that was emotionally trying, I didn't want to puncture that by writing something that was funny. I wanted to muse the humor in places that would naturally be humorous. So like when you're talking to your friends or stuff like that or when you're silently observing something that you think is weird. I didn't want to make serious things funny or intense things funny, I wanted to have a wide range of emotions. I wanted you to be like, “I'm laughing. No, now I'm sad. Now I'm stressed.” I wanted to move through all of those and have them be sort of distinct from each other and not just be like, cracking jokes the whole time which is something I could easily do, something I would love to do. But I just didn't feel like it served what I was, it didn't serve. I wanted people to feel and be really attached to these characters. So I felt like I had to do away with humor and sort of lean into more earnestness in some parts.

Jules
Totally. To be an actor for a second, as I tend to do.

Heather
Yeah, as one does.

Jules
Well, so I just saw Sing Sing recently, which I don't know if you have gotten the chance to see, definitely do, definitely, definitely do. Beautiful. Such a beautiful depiction of–

Heather
Wait, can you remind me what it's about? Because I can't, I feel like I've heard it, but…

Jules
So it's a new A24 with Colman Domingo and it's based on a real life program in Sing Sing, the penitentiary, where inmates are able to perform and they, you know, for most of the time will do Shakespeare, et cetera, et. It's based off of a real program and some of the actors in the movie were inmates in this program. Beautiful, beautiful, beautifully written. Colman Domingo can do anything and everything. It was just so wonderful to see like Black men and men of color just being so beautiful and tender with each other.

I say all of this to say that there's a point where they're talking about what play to do. And they were like, “let's do a comedy.” And they said, “comedy is hard.” It's hard. Anybody can do something that twists the knife and makes you cry and can make you angry or whatever. That's easy. Humor is hard because humor is a coping mechanism. It's a way to kind of alleviate the pressure off of you. You know what I mean? It can be so much heavier, I think. And I feel like that just really came across.

There’s a book called Audition by Michael Shurtleff. And in it he has a section that talks about humor and how everything needs humor. Because if not, like that's how we survive. If it wasn't for cracking a joke or whatever. That's really what I was thinking of as I was reading this. Because even something as simple as, “And Maya chose not to say anything passive aggressive”. It's just like, yes, absolutely.

So with that, do you feel like these characters, because there is more to come, I feel. The book is being printed as we speak, not to stress you out.

Heather
Oh, is it ever. Yeah.

Jules
There's gonna be a little bit of time in between, and I know that book two is coming. How do you feel like that will change over time? How those girls will grow as you do. How do you feel like that will manifest as you write?

Heather
Great question. I think, I think as you read you'll already see that by the end, the girls all mellow out of their archetypes a little bit, which, and I've thought about this. It already lends itself to a more mature writing style if I make the girls less archetypical because they're becoming more mature, maybe the style will have to become more mature, they're becoming more measured. I don't want to make the girls change themselves, even though you get the sense that they all have these sort of excesses in one faculty or another, and it's good for them to know each other and sort of pull different approaches from each other, know, take on different traits from each other and leave behind some of the traits that aren't serving them.

I don't know, I kind of don't want to be prescriptive about what will make them happy or successful people. I kind of want to see what they can do with the weird and unique traits that they already have. I want to keep them distinct and I want to keep them messy and a little bit immature and unevolved because I think that's just true to how people are no matter how old you are. So I think, yeah, I think there will be some maturing but I don't think any of them is ever gonna get a perfect balance, is my hope.

Jules
I love that.

When you were writing this, you were a different version of you, and now you're different. When you look back in your writing process, but more specifically, when you inevitably pick this book up to look back, who do you find needed this book?

Heather
Gosh, that's such a good question. The book is frankly, it's a weird book. Like the girls are 22, but I've taken a lot of inspiration from Gossip Girl, which is a young adult book that I love and that I loved when I was a preteen and was obsessed with and would love for young girls to have a Gossip Girl that has black characters, and have something that's that engrossing. It's like a piece of candy this gossipy, scandalous book. It was so much fun and nobody was Black. And I was like, “it'd be so fun to have something like this with Black characters.” So that's part of why I pulled in the Gossip Girl vibe. But then the characters are 22, so that's not quite young adult. And then, I guess you could say there are some adult themes. And I also wrote with the knowledge that adults also read young adult fiction. So there's a lot going on. I think if I had to put it in one space, if new adult actually meant something I guess I would put it in new adult. But as you know, that's not like a genre label that people really use.

Jules
Which like, why not? That was a thing, right? Like once upon a time, I'm not crazy?

Heather
No, no, it was. It was, but it was mostly smut, I think. I think it was kind of young adult writing, but you get lots of sex scenes, was the vibe with new adult. And so I think people don't like to use it for that reason. I feel like, I wanna say Fifty Shades of Grey is the book that opened that genre, but I can't remember.

Jules
I was going to say, what do you think ruined it, Twilight?

Heather
Oh no. It didn't exist before Twilight. Twilight is squarely young adult I would say because they're teenagers.

I honestly would frankly call it young adult, but I think it's young adult that would appeal to a lot of adults knowing a) that adults read young adult and also knowing b) that I've made an effort to make it a little bit funny and have some jokes that maybe you would read it when you're 13 and not totally be locked in, and then maybe reread it again when you're 23 or 33 and be like, “Oh, this little book I read when I was younger was like funnier and more insightful than I thought it was.” So yeah, I would say I would say [it’s] young adult with crossover potential. Though I will I don't even know how the categories work or where they're applied or anything like that. I don't really get it.

Jules
Let's talk about that because l I was looking it up. And just in the system that we use, [Bad Witches is] listed as fantasy. If a kid is ready to read a book, a kid is ready to read a book.

Heather
Yes.

Jules
And like, how old is that kid? Right? I don't think that there's anything overtly mature [in this book] that would be inappropriate. You're not introducing anything insane. They go to a bar.

Heather
I think the thing is that the categories and genres are sort of ill defined. I started reading literature when I was a teenager. I started reading literary fiction when I was a teenager and that's sort of boundless, anything can happen in that. I feel like young adult literature maybe has more to do with dealing with themes of–

Jules and Heather
Coming-of-age.

Heather
Yeah, and in a way that I guess is simpler or easier to digest for people, which is not something that you grow out of wanting to read. I understand why adults read that because why not? Why not read something that's kind of straightforward and easy to digest?

And also is not necessarily what you want when you're a teenager either. As a teenager you might be wanting to explore a more adult world. I think probably the thing that takes me out of YA the most is just the fact that they're 22. But in terms of the style and I the feeling that I'm trying to inspire, I would say it leans YA in that regard.

Jules
I would agree. I would definitely agree. I felt seen by reading this book, but I know that had I been like 16– because I also feel that it's like, “What can the book do for the reader,” too, that’s so much of it. It’s the bookstore, too, and we've talked about this. I've been to some bookstores where there's “classic lit fic” in one whole section and that's got Beloved that's got, you and then yet it's also in the black author section or black fantasy, or whatever. And so I feel because this book I think does sort of bleed across a couple different genres, there is I think a freedom in that and where it can live in a bookstore, too. So I think that, yeah, for sure.

Heather
Yeah, yeah, yeah It should be living everywhere, yeah.

Jules
It sure should!

Heather
Yeah, I think really it is about your goals and expectations as a reader. So for example, when I was a preteen reading, I was like, “I'm reading to entertain, but also I'm just reading to read. I'm reading to learn things and to know what's out there.” And for me, that was reading something like Gossip Girl. But once you become a teenager and you're reading to learn things and see what's out there, then you might move to literature. But then as an adult who might be saying, “I just want to read to be entertained,” then you might want to read a YA book, you know? So it just really depends on what you're looking to do.

Jules
For sure.

So let's finish this episode off: what are you reading right now?

Heather
Ooh, that's a good question. I am reading an ethically sourced copy of Sally Rooney's next book. Ethically sourced, I promise. And so I'm reading that because we're going to talk about it on the podcast. I've kind of been in a reading slump and I'm kind of, this is sort of the perfect setup where I'm like, okay, this is a book where I have really clear motivations for reading it, which are discussing it on the podcast and discussing it forever, because I'm sure people will be talking about it when it comes out. But also it's kind of just breezy enough that I can force myself through it even if I am not having fun. And so that's what I'm reading right now And then I have to do more reading for the podcast But after that I am so excited to read something that is not connected to the pod. So yeah!

Jules
I love that. I have not read any Rooney.

Heather
You haven't? interesting.

Jules
I've read nary a Rooney. So I mean, I'm interested to know your opinion.

Heather
Yeah. She's an interesting one to talk about, to discuss genres and where she sits, but yeah.

Jules
Okay. Well, thank you so much for doing this!

Heather
Ugh, thank you!

You can get your copy of Bad Witches over on our website!

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Sources Mentioned:

Bad Witches by H. B. Akumiah

Heather Akumiah and Leah Abrams’ reading series, Limousine

The fictional character, Hilary Banks, from The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air